Defining double dipping
can be simple or slippery
By Chip Drago
Mobile Bay Times
The term "double-dipping" and "double-dipper" has been much in the news of late and will probably return in the weeks leading up to the next session of the state Legislature in 2008.
But what exactly is a double-dipper? Is it simply a worker who draws pay for two jobs at the same time? Or is it more complicated, extending to legislators whose private employers hold governmental contracts or legislators whose spouses write insurance for a public entity? What is a double-dipper? What is unacceptable? Is there a benign, acceptable form of double-dipping?
Mobile Bay Times solicited the thoughts on double-dipping from a number of legislators, lobbyists, labor representatives, politicos and lawyers.
"A double dipper is someone who is paid twice for the same work or for the same time period. For many years there have been many legislators who worked for junior colleges or in some state government position where they were paid their state job pay on the same day they were in session. (Many received these state jobs after they became members of the legislature regardless of their qualifications.)
The recent decisions by (state two-year college chancellor) Bradley Byrne will end this practice.
I am the only K-12 teacher in the legislature. I am docked my teacher pay on the days that we are in session. I will be docked about $13,000 this year from my teacher salary. The recent raise in the legislative expense compensation will make up for the docking of pay, but the thousands of dollars that I will lose from my retirement will effect me for many years to come even after my legislative days are over.
I believe that the state school board will eventually prohibit all K-12 employees from also serving in the legislature. I believe this will eventually be needed because many former junior college employees in the legislature will drift over to the K-12 system making the same enormous amounts of money in an administrative position which is not subject to pay docking. If they are being paid for their state job on the days they are in session they would be double dipping.
Many speculate that many in the education fields had flexible schedules that would allow make up hours. One of these legislators told me he made up his hours on his computer in the middle of the night. I don't think many people believe that many hours are made up. Many people are skeptical of the honor system for these employees."
-- Rusty Glover,
state senator, school teacher, Mobile
"I am not sure that there is a legal definition of double dipping. My understanding of a true double dipper is someone who is working two jobs at the same chronological time and getting paid for both of them. But that is a very simplistic answer. In Alabama, I would believe that every legislator has more than a job as a representative or senator. So by definition, are they all double dipping or do they have two jobs with different hours. I know many people who have two jobs and get paid by two different employers, but work different hours.
There are people who think that individuals who have retired form the military and work a government job are double-dipping.
I personally have no problem with any individual holding an elected office and being employed in another job. Surely, the voters understand that these individual have other jobs -- if only because their opponent gladly points it out.
Moving further away from your question -- but still in the same ballpark -- I find it amazing that critics continually point at educators and say that they should not be in the legislature because of their 'special interest.' My question is what legislator does not have a 'special interest?' If they are lawyers, insurance salesmen, farmers, car dealers, etc., they vote on laws which affect them on professional or personal level everyday. Why should educators be the only profession excluded from being able to serve as a elected representatives?"
-- Danny Goodwin,
teachers representative, Mobile
"A double dipper to me is someone that has a vote in the legislature and also has another state income. (Others also exist, such as Ella Bell on the state school board).
In my opinion we need 140 legislators that do not have a conflict of interest. We need 140 public servants (not public employees) that will do their jobs based upon what should be done and not how it impacts their wallet or the wallet of their legislator friend sitting next to them. We have now created a state government that is conducted by a majority of individuals that benefit financially from their decisions. (the PEEHIP board is the same way.) This is not good government. Ken Guin for example received $48,000 plus from two different two-year schools and also received his salary of $49,000 plus from the legislature. Therefore he was collecting almost $150,000 from several sources of state dollars. ( He also has a full time law practice.)
The two-year system apparently used these individuals as lobbyists to move forward their agenda. Other areas of state government followed suit, so we end up with state employees lobbying as legislators for their own self interests of employment and wheeling and dealing with other state employees serving as legislators with their self interests being protected. This is not a good way to make decisions about state government.
When you look at how many legislators are employed by or have close family members (many received their jobs after their family members were elected) employed by state government, it is a disaster and leads to poor decisions.
In summary we need our decision makers to be public servants and not public employees. This includes K-12, the two and four year systems and all other state departments and agencies. This by the way will impact both political parties and (Alabama Education Association Executive Director) Paul Hubbert's 'great scheme of things,' so change may never happen unless enough people get indicted.
-- Randy McKinney,
member, state Board of Education, Gulf Shores
"The Alabama Constitution clearly states no person shall have two jobs of profit with the state. A double dipper is any person having two jobs with the state. Elected or contracted in my opinion should both be included."
-- Chris Pringle,
former state legislator, Mobile
"The Alabama Code 36-25-5 has a section on public employees. It also contains the Ethics laws. Section 59 and 68 of the Alabama Constitution addresses compensation for public officers. I remember, but can’t find it now, that somewhere there is a law about someone not being able to have two offices of profit at the same time.
... there is a section in the Alabama Constitution that states that legislative salaries are $4 per day. It was raised to $10 per day in the 1940s (I think). It would have to be amended in a Constitutional Amendment (and should be). We are the only state with this outdated provision. However, when a legislator files his or her income taxes, the IRS treats the (much larger) expense money as salary and you have to pay taxes on it. There is a daily per diem amount that allows the legislator a deduction for lodging, food and travel expenses. The per diem amount is determined annually (or used to be when I was there). If the legislature repealed the salary provision in the Constitution and had to pass a statute to set salaries, it would be a better way to handle the salary issue. However, salary increases would then take place in the next term after the statute was passed."
-- Mary S. Zoghby,
former state legislator, Mobile
"For our purposes, it is anyone who is working for pay or expense reimbursement for another entity when that person is supposed to be working for a college or agency in the System. You can work a second job after work hours or on the weekend so long as it doesn't interfere with your work for the System."
-- Bradley Byrne,
Chancellor, Alabama two-year college system
"A 'double dipper' is someone who is paid for 'working' at two or more (could that be a triple dipper?) government jobs. Usually it not at the same time, but in the case of educators in the Legislature, it is hard to tell because they claim they are giving up their $10/day 'salary' but still receive their 'expense' money and get paid for 'comp' or vacation time while in session.
I worked for years as the Director of Mobile County Data Processing Center and the Racing Commission but the County job was in the daytime and the Racing Commission was at night. I had an Attorney (General) opinion that I was not in violation because of the differences in the time when I was on the job.
I am of the opinion that when one job affects the other, such as when you have to be present at both at the same time or if one job affects the other job such as voting on the education budget while you work in the education system in some way (even as a 'consultant') or in the case of a former Senator who works for Alabama Homeland Security (which should have been a violation of the federal Hatch Act as well because it supposedly was paid with federal funds), that it should be disallowed. If someone wants to 'volunteer' at one job while being paid for the other job, I think that might be okay."
-- George Callahan,
former state senator, Theodore
"Of course, it depends on who you listen to. I don't think there is such a person or thing, but instead it is a convenient soundbite or buzzword that seems to have a bit a political traction these days and so we hear about it.
I don't think there is any question that folks shouldn't receive multiple salaries for doing the same job. This is much different from saying that folks shouldn't be allowed to receive multiple salaries for doing multiple jobs (even if for the same employer).
If not for my parents at various times in their lives working multiple jobs and bringing home multiple salaries, I would never have been afforded the opportunities that I have had otherwise. Many other families makes ends meet just the same way my family did. Without question, many folks are driven and ambitious and capable of performing satisfactorily at multiple jobs. After all, it is the good ole' American way -- if you want to be rewarded, work hard. And, sometimes that means working multiple jobs.
Specifically concerning the governor's and Chancellor Byrne's belief that educators should be denied the right to run for office, I can't make sense of it, other than to believe it is a thinly veiled attempt to take a shot at AEA (who have for decades tirelessly supported educators and over those same decades also amassed great political strength in Alabama). It is more than a coincidence that the governor and Chancellor Byrne have targeted only educators and no other professions."
-- Vance McCrary,
Democratic attorney, Mobile
"It's when a government employee serves in an elected government office, i.e. the Legislature. Therefore, they receive two government paychecks, hence they call it double dipping.
There are a lot of abuses. But it is an oversimplification of the issue to say that government employees shouldn't serve.
(State Rep. Spencer Collier was asked whether his former service as a state trooper was somehow different from a legislator working for a junior college.)
No, no, it's not (different, i.e. a legislator working as a state trooper rather than for a two-year college)," said Collier, a former state trooper who is now an investigator for a Mobile law firm.
Collier said the best solution to the problem of double-dipping is simply the enforcement of existing law and the personal integrity of those on either side of the issue as employees and employers.
Ethical restrictions should apply to anyone who profits from their relationship with government whether it involves a salary, a commission, a retainer or a contract, said Collier.
"The system is designed to work," he said. "The ethics law says you can't draw pay at the same time during the same hours (from two jobs). When I was a trooper, the time I was away I was not paid. I received legislative pay but not trooper pay. When I got home if I didn't get 40 hours in I didn't get a 40-hour pay check. We just need to enforce what's in place rather than a blanket (prohibition against education or other publicly funded workers serving in elective office). You can serve. It's just that the law needs to be enforced property."
"Take (state) Sen. (Rusty) Glover," said Collier. "He loses $280-$300 a day everyday he's teaching (history and civics at Mary G. Montgomery High School in Semmes). He's not a double-dipper. He's getting paid wherever he's working. If it's the Legislature, he's getting his whopping $10 a day. I know for a fact he's docked his teacher's salary when he's in Montgomery. The unfairness comes in when you have employees who are not being docked (when they are away from one of their jobs). That's where the problem is and where the abuses are. Obviously, some are abusing the system. In fact, I'd be willing to say a majority are abusing it. But I challenge anyone to go back and look at my time. It takes integrity and commitment from those who are in charge in those institutions. She (Collier's supervisor) looked me in the eye and said 'we are going to do this right.' We documented it down to the quarter hour.I appreciated and respected the fact that they said they would do it right because that's the way I wanted to do it. But a blanket policy that a person can't serve in office, I disagree with that."
-- Spencer Collier,
state legislator, Bayou la Batre
"Double dipping is a term which arose out of political campaigns to mean a person who holds elected office and works for the state, thus double dipping. Republicans are anti-double dippers. Democrats do not object. Think of the AEA endorsed politicians.
A good example was the “Double Dipping Dwayne” ad in (Steve) Windom’s '98 lieutenant governor's race. (Dwayne) Freeman was a legislator who worked for a junior college, as I recall. The junior college system is known for its “double dippers.” Roy Johnson is a perfect example before he became (juco) President."
Many states prohibit it. However, there is no illegality to double dipping in Alabama. As you can see from the above, Hubbert would kill any such bill.
The problems which relate to double dipping are obvious."
-- Lee Hale,
attorney, Mobile
"As it is used by (critics), it is ugly, namely people that hold one government job — school administrator — who have another government job, legislator, so they are getting paid by two entities and if they are using accrued vacation or 'comp' time while in the latter job they are literally getting paid twice.
Prior to this type of thing, it was sort of a lighthearted reference to people who say retired from the military or some government position after 20 or 30 years and then got a job with another government, different branch or state as opposed to federal, etc., and then got paid. These people were drawing retirement and then getting a salary for new work. This was and, I believe, still is benign and acceptable.
It is those who are feathering multiple nests all at the same time that create the problem."
-- Al Pennington,
Democratic attorney, Mobile
"My understanding of the definition has always been a member of the legislature who has a full or part-time job with any state agency. I've always been frustrated with the fact that these employees are working on, and ultimately voting on, budgets of the very departments they work for. Plus the heads of the various departments are constantly fighting for their share of the pie and the double-dippers are lobbied extremely hard to protect the turf of their ultimate bosses.
Imagine a member of Congress with a part-time gig with the FBI, NTSB, or the DOJ, etc. Just hard to justify and the fact that the state's ethics commission has in the past blessed this really taints the credibility of any other decision they make."
-- Mark Erwin,
attorney, local GOP chairman, Mobile
"I think a double dipper is someone like (state Sen.) Larry Dixon who is a state employee and a legislator, for example -- and as long as his constituents don't have a problem with it and keep electing him, I don't have a problem with it. Who am I to second guess the voters?
I don't think state employees or education employees in the Legislature are any more troubling than say an insurance defense attorney or insurance agent voting on insurance or tort issues that they or their clients have a stake in, or trial lawyers serving in the Legislature voting on similar issues that affect them and their clients. What about retirees voting on issues important to seniors. etc.
I think we should trust the voters to avoid a slippery slope of who should be allowed to serve and make a living at the same time.
Obviously, I am opposed to legislators creating jobs, slush funds, or other favorable situations for themselves, friends, or family members."
-- Wade Perry,
education employees' representative, Mobile
"I’m on record as saying it is allowing elected state officials to simultaneously hold jobs in public education and state government.
Allowing elected state officials to simultaneously hold jobs in public education and state government ('double-dipping') presents a serious and systemic threat to the integrity, efficiency, impartiality, and accountability of Alabama's state government.
First, double-dipping erodes public confidence and trust in our legislative and educational institutions. The continuing string of double-dipping stories in the news perpetuates the "good old boy" view of Alabama politics, harking back to the time when smoke-filled rooms and shady deals were the norm.
The inherent conflict of interest in this educator-legislator scenario creates the appearance, if not the reality, of impropriety. Alabamians deserve honest and open public officials whom they can trust to work for the public good.
Second, double-dipping hurts the quality of education our students receive. The current system creates inevitable and unavoidable time conflicts which require the elected official/teacher to be away from the classroom for days at a time.
This disrupts the learning process and short-changes the students of valuable educational opportunities. The education of our students is too important to be handled on a part-time basis. Alabama students deserve full-time educators, not part-time legislators.
Third, double-dipping is unfair to the hardworking public education employees in our state. When legislator-educators receive special perks based on politics, not performance, what kind of message does that send to public educators all across Alabama who work long hours for modest pay to teach our students? It certainly doesn't help boost morale. Our committed, hardworking, full-time educators deserve better than to be lumped in with this crowd.
Fourth, double-dipping is a waste of our money. Paying educators for little or no work while they also collect paychecks from the Legislature is a blatant misuse of taxpayers' money. Perhaps some of this money paid to these 'educators' could be put toward educating our students through the hiring of full-time teachers.
Fortunately for Alabama, Gov. Riley has his sights trained on the double-dipping debacle. He has recently introduced legislation and a state school board policy that would prohibit a state employee, public education employee or person who performs services under a consulting contract with the state from holding an elected state office.
Passing these proposals is essential to restoring the public's trust and eliminating the appearance of improprieties."
-- Luther Strange,
GOP attorney, Birmingham
